Text of Benazir Bhutto’s Interview with Shaheen Sehbai, Editor, SA Tribune

 

 

SS: Now that the date (of the elections) has been announced and you have also been sort of disqualified, what is the game plan with you?

BB: I know that some people think I have been disqualified. There is a dispute on that. I agree that there are attempts to disqualify me and my lawyers are looking at the possibility of challenging the Political Parties Act debarring a person who has twice been prime minister from contesting again. Other than that there is not a disqualification as such.

SS: What about the ARY (Gold) case. Does that, do you think, means disqualification?

BB: That is disputed too. The sentence that has been given is violative of Pakistan's constitution and law. The sentence has been given under a decree passed by dictator Musharraf with retrospective effect. And now there is a dispute whether the Constitution should prevail or the dictator's decree should prevail. But this matter would also be going to the court. It is not a conviction in the ARY case. That is a trumped up case. This is a conviction for non-appearance, which is violative of  Pakistan Constitution. I would like to clarify that it is not a conviction under constitution or law but under Musharraf's decree with retrospective effect.

SS: But all these things that you are saying depend on what Pakistani courts may or may not do by the time the elections are there. Are you hopeful that these matters will be resolved before the elections and you would be able to participate?

BB: I am hopeful. I always believe that one should be positive. I know that courts are under tremendous pressure. The Chief Justice of the Supreme Court was sacked and therefore the junior judge and the junior accountability court would also be under tremendous pressure knowing what happened to the Chief Justice of the highest court of the land. Nonetheless I know that there are men and women in the Pakistan judiciary who care about Pakistan's future and who care about justice and fundamental rights. And I am hoping that when the time comes they will stand by principles rather than the dictator.

SS: By the time the elections come and if you are in the same position as you are now, what happens to your plans?

BB: This is all very speculative and we still have to see what is the decision on the Political Parties Act. As far as the so-called conviction is concerned that is not a disqualification according to our interpretation.

 
SS: Having gone through all that you have gone through and we have seen the Pakistan military behaving in the manner what they have been doing, don't you think it is time for all the politicians to get together and do something about it on a permanent basis?

BB: Yes I think it is time.

SS: So what are you doing about it?

BB: What I am doing is supporting my party's efforts of working through the Alliance for Restoration of Democracy (ARD) to create a broad based consensus within the country of the importance of civilian control over the political destiny of Pakistan.

SS: Have you been talking directly to Mian Nawaz Sharif and his party?

BB: I have not had the opportunity to do that. However in the PPP we actually decentralize a lot of decision making and so the Vice Chairman of the party has been in contact with Mr. Sharif and other members of the party have been in touch with his party members. I do have met from time to time members of the Muslim League. But the major bulk of responsibility has been carried by the party back at home.

SS: What do you think you and Nawaz Sharif should be doing now together to face this continuous military threat?

BB: We are working through the ARD to create a consensus on the future direction of Pakistan and on the political system.

SS: Have you thought about what mistakes you have been making in the past and not to make the same mistakes again?

BB: Yes we have been thinking about the past and while some of our supporters were disappointed, we would like to rectify that and at the same time we are grateful for the people who appreciate our record in office and having given socio-economic emancipation to the people of Pakistan and who stood by us. We have got the core support and we want to build on it by reforming ourselves for the future.

 

SS: So many cases have been going on against you in Pakistani courts by the accountability bureau and some of them were started by the Nawaz Sharif government and Saif ur Rehman and all those people. Basically, what is your defense against these, all these are wrong or they are what?

 

BB: They are baseless, politically motivated allegations, investigations and proceedings by hostile regimes against victims who have been tortured and denied fundamental human rights. It is state-sponsored perversion of justice, which is a criminal act and must be investigated itself.

 

SS: Your defense in the ARY case is also the same?

 

BB: Yes, it’s a politically motivated case by hostile regime. At first one hostile regime and then another hostile regime.

 

SS: Its going to be a little awkward, but we have here proceedings of the Senate Committee in Washington where the President of the Citibank himself gave evidence that his bank had accounts of Mr Zardari over 60 million dollars up to 100 million dollars.

 

BB: I am unaware of that and I would dispute that the Citibank president gave a statement claiming that Senator Zardari had 60 million dollars. Ok? Now the regime has alleged…

 

SS: This is not the regime I am talking about, I am talking about the President of the bank making a statement….

 

BB: Let me finish..the regime has alleged that certain companies belong to my husband. There’s a difference between company accounts and Senator Zardari’s accounts. So, I have still to see a statement where it has been said Senator Zardari has 60 million dollars. But, even if Senator Zardari had 60 million dollars, I would put the question, where is the corruption? from where did the proceeds come? But that is a separate issue..

                                         

SS: That evidence by the Citibank President…

 

BB: That’s incorrect, anyone has told you that, its incorrect,  its incorrect, its baseless and its incorrect. I have seen the Citibank and nowhere has it been said. The Pakistani regime has alleged that certain companies belonged to Senator Zardari and in the period that we were…these accounts were started…not when we were there…the period when these accounts were opened were times when laws were different. The beneficial owners were not there. Ok? So, there was an absolute lack of evidence linking Senator Zardari to the disputed accounts. These are disputed accounts, they are disputed properties. I go further and say that even if the regime alleges that Senator Zardari to 60 million dollars, they should be able to come up with a contract from which he took it. After all, it’s a huge amount of money. These are baseless stories, and they have been deliberately spread because I believe that military hardliners saw the Pakistan Peoples Party and myself as a threat to their ambitions, to take on the West, after they took on the Soviet Union and that’s why they destabilized both my governments.

 

SS: Basically, what do you think will happen now? From now until the elections. Would you be going back and when?

 

BB: Yes I want to go back, I want to contest the election, and actually I am doing it for my party, I am doing it for my country, otherwise I have been Prime Minister twice. In 1997, I said that I had no desire to be Prime Minister of Pakistan again. It was my party and it was the constituency of the party, the labor, the working classes, the middle classes, they insisted that I had a role to play and that’s the reason why I am determined to face the military dictatorship. I believe dictatorship must be challenged and if I have a role to play in challenging that, I would like to do so.

 

SS: What happens after the elections? Would you be working under General Musharraf and it seems he would be there still.

 

BB: Well, that’s a long way off. A lot depends on the election and Mr Musharraf’s election has to be ratified by the Parliament itself, so a lot depends on what happens during the elections. The Opposition has asked that its reform package be implemented. Gen Musharraf says he wants a fair election and we want a fair election and therefore we think   Gen Musharraf should accept our proposal. For example, we suggested

 that members of the Human Rights Commission should be included in the Election Commission of Pakistan and we made suggestions about the vote count to prevent rigging. We suggested that there should be politically hostile members of the Musharraf administration need to be removed. We said that members of the ISI have been reported, colonels and majors, approaching ticket holders and interfering in the political process, and they must be stopped. We would like Mr Musharraf to do that. Of course if Mr Musharraf rigs the election, there’s very little need for him to ask for our support. If he’s unable to rig the election, well then I guess he’s going to have to talk to us to get our support.

 

SS: What would be your yardstick of declaring an election fair?

 

BB: The implementation of our reform package. Already the election rigging has taken place. The implementation of our reform package would be a major step. Secondly, the public opinion would be a major step. The media, the intellectuals, all the foreign observers will be watching the elections and its like the referendum, people will have to see whether it was fair in accordance with the turnout or whether something else happened.

 

SS: Where do you think Gen Musharraf stands today given all the things that he has done, his U turns, his referendum, his rigging as you say?

 

BB: He started out by making certain promises. He promised to hold fair elections. He promised to respect the fundamental rights of the citizens of Pakistan by ending political victimizations through the NAB (National Accountability Bureau). He promised to reform the economy. Somewhere along the line, he changed the direction, and I think he needs to focus once again on the commitment he made and I think he needs to reach out to the combined Opposition in the fulfillment of those promises.

 

SS: What you are saying is that you still could talk to him and still could discuss things with him if he were to change his direction.

 

BB: Well, this is something for the ARD to decide of which the Peoples Party is a member, but you are right, so long as he is there and so long that as he commands Western support and army’s support. If he wants to start a negotiating process, certainly it would have to be followed. However, if he is bent on a collision course, than the outcome could be different.

 

SS: What has Musharraf done wrong after 9-11 and what would you have done in his place?

 

BB: I think that if People’s Party and I had been there, the Taliban would never have been in control of all of Afghanistan, nor would they have invited in Al-Qaeda and set up recruiting camps, and I do feel that September 11 is the direct consequence of the overthrow of the Pakistan People’s Party government. Now lets say for a moment that this event did occur, well honestly, we too (would) have joined the war against terror. We believe and respect international law and we think its wrong to take planes and fly them into towers and go and kill 3000 innocent victims in New York. We think its very very wrong. So we would have joined war against terror but the point that I am trying to make is that may be there would have been a very little need for a war against terror if there had been right leadership in Pakistan that adopted the right policies that promoted peace and reconciliation. That’s what I want to do. I am concerned about the conflict, the bloodshed, the war, the violence and I think that my leadership can have a healing effect that will bring reconciliation and peace. I think our people want reconciliation and peace and I want to help in that.

 

SS: Whom would you hold responsible for the killings of innocent people, thousands of them, by the Americans and the allies after 9-11?

BB: War is ugly and… war is ugly. I think I would hold Taliban responsible for being the catalyst to a violent war. I think that’s sad that innocent people died and I grieve for them and I think it’s sad that 150 people died in a wedding and I grieve for them. At the same time, I think, in addition to grieving, there is a need for political leadership and as I said, I think I can provide the type of political leadership that can save people from bloodshed and violence and conflicts, whether it’s in New York or Kabul or Kandahar or Jalalabad or Karachi.

 

SS: Basically, what you are saying is that you agree with what the Americans did in that region after 9-11?

 

BB: Well, I am saying I can understand that there was a war. I’m not saying that I agree that war is good and I’m also saying that the Americans were attacked and they reacted. Yes, and they had a right under international law to defend themselves and I’m thinking that the political leadership in Pakistan was given the opportunity to work out a political deal with the Taliban but the political leadership failed in getting Taliban to extradite Bin Laden that could have prevented the retaliatory military action by America. It’s a complicated issue, but overall my message is clear that there is too much bloodshed and violence and you need the right leadership to prevent bloodshed and violence.

 

SS: Is the American leadership now comfortable with you if you come back?

 

BB: This is something that they can answer.

 

SS: But what are the feelings, the vibes that you are getting? You are a regular visitor to the US.

 

BB: I’m a regular visitor and I’m grateful that each time I come, I am listened to with patience and my views are heard. However, much as I like to give my own impression of that, I think its proper that the people about whom the question is, should be asked.

 

SS: You said that you will be returning to Pakistan before the elections, is that right?

 

BB: Yes, I’d like to contest the elections. Under the present legal advice that I have, I can contest the elections. Of course, the regime is opposing me and they will do everything to make my life uncomfortable. They already made my father-in-law’s life uncomfortable by keeping him behind bars for three years. They have kept my husband behind. On Nov 4th, it will be six years. They are trying to sentence my mother in absentia. They have done everything they can to make my life uncomfortable and at the same time I feel that if my party and my people want me, it is my responsibility to play a role.

 

SS: What would your advice be to Mian Nawaz Sharif. Should he also come back and contest, no matter what the consequences?

 

BB: Certainly it will make a big political impact if both of us were to return. He’s in a better position to comment on whether he can do so.

 

SS: Are you prepared to return at the same time, in the same flight with him?

 

BB: Oh yes, I think this will make a lot of headline news.

 

SS: Would it make any difference on the ground?

 

BB: I think it would, I think it would have a tremendous impact.

 

SS: Has there been any effort to try and achieve that?

 

BB: I think as far as we are concerned, we are unaware of the details of the understanding between Mr Sharif and Mr Musharraf. So we are unable to comment on that. I think the best is to ask Mr. Sharif whether he is able to do it or not.

 

SS: What do you think is the state of mind of Mr. Zardari right now after six years (in jail)?

BB: He is a very determined person. He was in England on October 31^st when the reports came in that the government was going to be sacked and he returned because he has a passionate sense of defending his name and his reputation. He came back and he paid the price to salvage his reputation. Yes, he’s a businessman. Yes, he was involved in business and he says he never ever violated a single Pakistani law or a single international law. He remains strong in a bid to clear his name and reputation.

 

SS: Do you think he has been able to clear his name?

 

BB: This is for the people of the country to say but I think people of his own constituency think he has cleared his name. They recently elected his sister as the Nazim of Nawabshah. The reason they did it was to stand by him and tell him they they believe that he’s innocent.

 

SS: Do you think it was the right decision of his sister to follow the rules of the game set by Gen Musharraf? Was it right for his sister to contest the (Local Bodies) elections?

 

BB: This was the decision the PPP took that its members could contest in the non-party elections. Like other members of the PPP, she felt that in a non-political capacity she could contest in those elections.

 

SS: Is your party now ready for elections. Have you selected the candidates? Have you gone through the process?

 

BB: It’s a very arduous process. There are many different applicants. We are unaware of the exact qualifications. We have done a lot of work on the direct parliamentary seats. But there’s a graduation clause there. As far as the technocrats and the women’s seats are concerned, the regime has still to come out and clarify what sort of elections they will be. We understand that the regime wants to adopt separate electorate for women

and technocrats. If the regime does that, it means one set of candidates get elected because separate electorate mean we have to campaign all over Punjab, all over Sindh. You need to have the transport to travel to those places. You need to have the infrastructure, the polling agents, so that depends. But if it’s a proportional vote, that is, people get elected automatically and we lift them 1 2 3 then we’ll have another set of candidates from the technocrats and women. There’s a great degree of confusion yet.

 

SS: Do you think you have enough time to sort these things out while you are still away from the scene?

 

BB: I am away from the scene, that’s true and some times I wonder if I have enough time to sort it out. I am lucky because we are a very strong party and we have a very dedicated cadre. They have all been working very very hard all the way from Khyber to Karachi to assist in this process because it is a grass root process. We have made little progress on the women and technocrats. We haven’t even called for nominations yet because we are asking the regime to clarify what are the rules and we really need to know the rules. The women and the technocrats want to know the rules that who is qualified to contest.

SS: What about the new clause that the Senators will also be directly elected now?

BB: That is really ridiculous. It is very ridiculous. It changes the fundamental nature of the Constitution which is violative of the Supreme Court ruling which said that General Musharraf had right to make certain laws to facilitate the holding of the elections but that he was unable to change the complexion of the Constitution but what he is trying to do is change the Constitution and I am very happy that Mr. Nawaz Sharif, his party and the PPP and other parties have joined together to take a stand for political and civilian supremacy and to reject these constitutional changes by decree. The imperial order that Musharraf wants to impose is frightening. It is a totalitarian order where the military usurps all decision making. Even our officers in the military and soldiers deserve a better fate than having 5 or 6 people at the top, a few military and a few civilians, take decisions about the future of 140 million people. It is shocking. This is the 21^st century.

 

SS: Many people believe that the regime would do everything to provoke the Opposition parties to go for a boycott of the elections. Do you foresee any situation where you and other parties may boycott the elections?

BB: I too have heard that the regime might set rules to try and provoke us into a boycott. We want to avoid a situation like that. We will do our best to try and take part in the elections. I will do my best to try and see that the party takes part in the elections. Of course we hope that the situation will be avoided when we are pushed into a corner and have very little options other than a boycott. I hope that situation can be avoided. From our side, from my side, we will do our best.

 

SS: The recent Executive Order that two-time Prime ministers cannot be third time prime minister, was it not part of a similar exercise to provoke you and Mian Nawaz Sharif?

BB: Yes it was a similar exercise. They are trying to provoke us, in fact I remember that an army general came and met my husband in 1989 and said Mr Zardari why don’t you become the prime minister of Pakistan. If you do then we won’t have a problem. Ms Bhutto is a lady and we find it very awkward in a Muslim country to have a lady prime minister. So Asif and I were joking that they are trying to eliminate me to facilitate him. But more seriously PPP is a very strong party and these proposals have to be ratified by Parliament and they can be challenged in the courts and I am sure that the justices are honorable men and they too as Pakistanis must be deeply concerned about the future. I am sure that they can repeal the Political Parties Act and facilitate both Mr Sharif and myself to contest these elections.

 

SS: Many people also feel that if things don’t go right for the regime, they might put off the elections.

 

BB: I hear that they are going to put off the elections. I hope that news is incorrect. I think it is far better for a society to have reconciliation, to have healing because reconciliation brings people together and I think it is important that General Musharraf review what he has done so far. I think it is important that the countries which support General Musharraf review that the support is predicated on one man and I think it is important that the armed forces and all other important segments of our intellectuals, the universities, the laborers, they should review the situation and each one of us should play a part for having reconciliation. It is through reconciliation that we can build Pakistan and put an end to the poverty and the misery that is existing there. I think it is very important and I am going to play my part for it and I hope others will play their part.

 

SS: What exactly you can do as part of the reconciliation that you propose?

 

BB: It is part of the reconciliation that we have kept the doors of a dialogue open with the military regime. It is part of the reconciliation process that we have come together in the ARD. It is part of the reconciliation process that we are hoping that the Supreme Court of Pakistan will also repeal the Political Parties Act and say that we want the fundamental rights of all the citizens recognized and respected. We have also proposed a Truth and Reconciliation Commission. It is important that the victims be acknowledged. Victims of the last…In our two terms people lost an eye, they lost a knee cap, they lost their liberty, they lost their lives. People like Mian Arshad. It is important to acknowledge the victims so that they know that they did not suffer in vain.

SS: BB Thank You very much.

 

Listen to this interview in Real Audio (28 min.)